Thanks
Schwaggy P's Random Stuff
- Thread starter Schwaggy P
- Start date
ThanksThere are scant incentives to get involved in the long breeding projects. This reality stems from the considerations of time/cost to produce as well as a seed market that rewards less involved processes. In the time it would take to really work a strain over multiple generations, the other guys could have something like 3-6 “drops” worth of crosses that are either all F1 or S1 seeds that only took one cycle to produce.
When the worked strain would finally be complete, the breeder would have to put a higher price tag on the pack in order to get the return on investment. The other type of seed maker gets the investment return on lights, nutes, etc. after the one cycle it took to make them. The longer process of making a strain means the breeder has to eat those costs over several generations before they even get a shot at maybe selling the seeds to recoup and make a profit.
Looking around the seed market, one would notice a customer base that has accepted the “one and done” (cool cut A X cool cut B) (without any specific purpose) model as norm. As IG has developed into an immutable hype machine, prices for the crosses involving these plants get pushed up with increasing demand to prices that reflect the hype more than the desirability of a uniquely new strain. It seems as though the prices were topped out at a level, beyond which, few would make a purchase.
Now add to this dynamic a rush of new seed makers utilizing this model of seed production and the increased supply of seeds has depressed the overall range of pricing. So you may notice that seed prices have started to creep down from the $100-$200 range, but this is not because everyone all the sudden said, “Hey, let’s back off prices guys.” In the face of a mostly static demand, an increasing supply would necessarily lower the prices. My point here is that not only has the less involved crosses priced out the longer involved strains, but the rush of new guys has decreased the overall pricing as they flood the market with ever more seeds.
I know of a well-respected breeder who takes the time to line breed and stress test. His prices were around $150/pack and he has had to do multiple BOGO type promos to get them to sell. He didn’t use any of the newer cuts and instead opted for vintage/heirloom ingredients. So when there isn’t overwhelming demand for worked lines, a low ceiling for pricing, incredible opportunity cost of not doing quick crosses to sell, and an expectation one must use modern hype cuts, jumping into very involved breeding projects is more a labor of love than a wildly successful business model.
Freshly shucked
Chem Kesey x Black Lights
(Chem'91skva x 88G13HP) X (Black Domina x Northern Lights #1)
Chem Kesey x Black Lights
(Chem'91skva x 88G13HP) X (Black Domina x Northern Lights #1)
Cob_nUt
"Justa Ganja Lover"
Well said.I totally agree.I wonder, if the hype cut cross machine that is plowing thru the industry right going to stay the norm.Or will the demand for worked lines become more prevalent.
Money has driven a stake between the love of the plant and it's preservation.Slightly bottle-necking the gene pool in the process.IG is the taint of MJ anatomy.
F1's and S1's cetainly have their place as well as a spot in my garden.But Uniformity,"stability",genotype and phenotype expression without much variance,certainly has it's place as well.
Hopefully the community will self-correct with more passionate creators such as yourself continuing to put in the work. I don't get out much,but it seems overwhelmingly lopsided currently.A microcosim of the world in a vacuum.
given the life expectancy of chemD and cookies, OG, etc, I'd say the hype machine gonna be around long time. Not everyone can do what schwaggy does, nor can. As an example, Breeder Stever, one of the OG's, instead of working lines that made him famous, he's on a mission per biogrowing in Columbia. He chose not to work his lines, but to take a different path. IMHO, the bottlenecking arguement is great in theory, but in real life, if all you got is a closet or room, and want to perpetuate any genes you may find, that's your only choice. Some folks gripe bout the IBL's being weak, too much inbreeding, etc. recessive traits coming out. What I like about Schwagg Man's version is his information, I can draw a pretty good conclusion on what I want to find out by reading what he knows, combined with my own experience, etc. Just an opinion, not worth much , lol.
Cob_nUt
"Justa Ganja Lover"
Agreed.I wasn't insinuating or trying to infer one was better than the other.Just wondering if it will level out at some point.A balance if you will of targeted and goal specific work and the machine of hype
My bottleneck comment was in reference to maninly what I see.As I've stated I don't get out much.2 forums and sometimes IG.But It appears to be a lot of the same genetics being used or different phenos of said genetics,cuts etc.
Granted I'll admit I don't follow a lot of folks on IG nor do I stay on it very long before my brains starts crying.
What Schwaggy said about someone working their lines for a few generations target specific and by the time they are tested and ready to be released...someone has dropped 6 crosses in the the same timeframe,is spot on.How does the guy working those lines"compete"?Most of them aren't trying to.They have their own motivations behind such tedious work.
Meanwhile 13 new different crosses,phenos of a cross etc have popped up.
I appreciate Schwaggy and his willingness to share his knowledge in real time.You see the work and if you dont understand it...he'll explain it to you meticulously.These kind of cats are out there and should be treasured.
I know we haven't reached or at least I hope we aren't near the bottom of the genetic pool to dip in and play with.It's just with the popularity of "legalization" there is a moneygrab clusterfuck perpetuated by big corp.All the while standing on the little guys' shoulders while trying to squeeze him out.
Ok I got off track somewhere in there.
Thanks Jesse, you're a good dude too. Thanks for your well wishes and I hope you have a great day.Oh so true.
I love, that you love it enough to do what you're doing.
That's so awesome!
I also love the plant and love the fact I've met your wonderful self to learn about doing, and sharing in the same types of projects.
Thanks for being you, your good folk.
Just had to throw that at ya. Have a great day my friend.
There is certainly a place for F1 and S1, I hope I didn’t give the impression that the only seeds worth much are heavily worked lines. It was just an attempt to explain why we don’t see many worked strains.
Leaving some things as F1 can allow the grower to select the expression they like while not watering down hybrid vigor. S1 is a nice option if you’d like to experience a specific cut, but don’t have access. Fems are also helpful to growers with limited plant counts or space.
I think the distinction I would draw would be between those who are purposeful in their cross, including a parent they created and someone who is haphazardly crossing things together on the basis of strain popularity or pollinating whatever plant was big enough to toss into flower without any thoughtful consideration to a purpose.
Thank you, I very much appreciate that.
Lol, I would agree that the marketing tools are too lucrative in shaping the demand to be mothballed. I think of hype cuts as being more of the short lived cuts (think all of the dessert phenos that keep popping up) that come and go. While the OG is very popular, I would consider her more of a monumental additional subspecies wholly her own with a set of characteristics not totally embodied in any other plant. There have been plants with long internodes, or high potency, or 3-5 blade leaves, etc. But OG encapsulates all of these traits into one characteristic plant the way Skunk, Haze, or Afghan conjures specific plant morphologies when considered.
Thank you. I’ll try to keep posting up whatever info can help.
Single Branch Pollination Shuck
Old School Hashplant x Black Lights
(PNW Hashplant x 88G13HP) x (Black Domina x NL#1)
Old School Hashplant x Black Lights
(PNW Hashplant x 88G13HP) x (Black Domina x NL#1)
lol, no probs maing, Ize just roundtable discussin witcha, this is the knowledge thread, by golly! I too admire schwaggys approach and methods for same reasons you stated. This is one of the main places I stop every day to check out the new updates, etc. Philisophically, I agree wit ya on the way the game is changin. Im still a lil surprised nobody is discussin the Phylos breeding projects, after they tested so many strains for others, etc. But that's for another thread. Man, wake and bake with the ChemD x ChocD, gonna be a good friday!
Phylex
PICK YOUR OWN
I wanted to try and attempt my first pollination with the plants I currently have so I could get my feet wet in the process. I wanted to gain some experience before I embarked on my "true" project. I found a 9lb. Hammer male I decided to use. I took 5 of my known female clones that were approximately 8" tall, and flipped them to flower. I pollinated every flower site on each plant. They're about 18" tall now and are either already finished, or finishing up. I'm continuing to let them all keep growing out of fear of taking them too early. I'd like as many of the seeds to fully mature as possible. They're at day 68 from flip and day 53 from pollination. My main point to all of this is; I was only hoping for around 10 seeds from each plant. After seeing the amount of seeds you just produced from one branch, I'm really excited to see how many seeds I actually end up getting now. I would be stoked to end up with that many from each plant. I'm thankful for this experiment. It's what I was hoping for. A good learning experience.
On a side note; While I didn't have any specific plans other than the experience, I do have certain things I'd like to see in the progeny now that I've grown them all out and have become somewhat familiar with the strains I'm currently growing. While this wasn't started as a planned project, I'm actually very curious about how two of them may have actually turned out. (Possibly 3) Maybe I'll be struck with some dumb luck. If not, it's not a big deal either because I truly would like to get started on my planned project and I know that's going to be a lot of time invested. Talking with you in the other thread has got me really excited. I look forward to getting the project started as soon as possible.
Cob_nUt
"Justa Ganja Lover"
I try and tried very hard to stay away from the phylos dumpster fire...lol.lol, no probs maing, Ize just roundtable discussin witcha, this is the knowledge thread, by golly! I too admire schwaggys approach and methods for same reasons you stated. This is one of the main places I stop every day to check out the new updates, etc. Philisophically, I agree wit ya on the way the game is changin. Im still a lil surprised nobody is discussin the Phylos breeding projects, after they tested so many strains for others, etc. But that's for another thread. Man, wake and bake with the ChemD x ChocD, gonna be a good friday!
Yessir all good mayne.Love the discussion.
I usually take a test nug from the seeded plants around the time they would usually be done when grown for bud to see how the seeds are maturing. I'm sure you've got more than 10 fully mature seeds on your plants that have been cookin' for as long as they have.
Even if you don't immediately pop them to see what happened, banking them and other crosses may turn out to be just the type of parents you'll need in the future for other projects you haven't even come up with yet. I like to pollinate a few plants for further breeding stock for other possible projects that may not be helpful with current things. All the extra seeds are good for experimenting with different germination methods.
You'll definitely be putting in some time to nail that 3-way. I very much enjoyed the exchange and I'm eager to follow along with your process.
For anyone interested in that particular conversation:
How Would One Find and Create the Perfect Male?
Phylex
PICK YOUR OWN
I'm going to wait until mid fall to start my project since I'm going to be really busy over the next four months. I don't want any accidental mishaps once I get it started. In the meantime I wanted to germinate a few of the new seeds and also self my BCK. Selfing will be another new experience for me. I have everything I need for the BCK S1 experiment. I'm currently waiting for the clones to get bigger before I embark on that journey.I usually take a test nug from the seeded plants around the time they would usually be done when grown for bud to see how the seeds are maturing. I'm sure you've got more than 10 fully mature seeds on your plants that have been cookin' for as long as they have.
Even if you don't immediately pop them to see what happened, banking them and other crosses may turn out to be just the type of parents you'll need in the future for other projects you haven't even come up with yet. I like to pollinate a few plants for further breeding stock for other possible projects that may not be helpful with current things. All the extra seeds are good for experimenting with different germination methods.
You'll definitely be putting in some time to nail that 3-way. I very much enjoyed the exchange and I'm eager to follow along with your process.
For anyone interested in that particular conversation:
How Would One Find and Create the Perfect Male?
The Solvent Skunk project is moving along. Here are the top 10 females that expressed the structural requirements in the (Green Crack S1 x Granny Skunk)F1. I have also added Blue Cheese(Big Buddha) and Appalachian Super Skunk(Bodhi) to this table to also be pollinated by each of the 2 selected male (Green Crack S1 x Granny Skunk)F1. I will be pollinating a Green Crack S1 with these males also as insurance against these ladies being too far removed from the desirable GC traits. This way if I'm unhappy with the 10 selected females, I don't have to burn a whole other cycle just to restart a new approach to the project.
The 2 males in their own space just flipped. I will pollinate 2 single branches of each female, each with one of these pollen donors. As the females develop and ripen, I will be able to quickly narrow down which females' F2 seeds will be popped to be used for the next step.
Here is a table of mostly (H.A.OG x Black Triangle). I added a couple (Chocolate Covered Strawberries F2 x Black Triangle) to see how the male interacts with a different type of female (short, quicker flower,late purpling).
The 2 males in their own space just flipped. I will pollinate 2 single branches of each female, each with one of these pollen donors. As the females develop and ripen, I will be able to quickly narrow down which females' F2 seeds will be popped to be used for the next step.
Here is a table of mostly (H.A.OG x Black Triangle). I added a couple (Chocolate Covered Strawberries F2 x Black Triangle) to see how the male interacts with a different type of female (short, quicker flower,late purpling).
Phylex
PICK YOUR OWN
If I'm understanding correctly, once they're pollinated, you can tell which cross would be the best one to test first? How do you determine this while the females are developing and ripening? For instance, I pollinated two Blackjack females with my 9lb. Hammer male. Is there a way to tell which could potentially end up better without popping seeds from both and growing them out?
Or is it more so, this is the first run with the ten selected females your pollinating. And as they ripen and mature, you'll see which ones express the desired qualities that meet your goal? (pre pollination)
I'm still waking up with some coffee. As I type this out, now I'm thinking it may be more of the latter.
This⬆
By only pollinating a single lower branch, the rest of the plant will mature as sensi bud expressing itself as if I were to have just flowered them out. As the females mature, I'll be able to get any notes on the traits and have an idea of which female best embodies what I want. Thanks to the already pollinated branches, I will then not have to wait for a completely new round where I would have to pollinate the winning female. It saves a step by hunting the proper female while already having her pollinated (since they'll all get a branch dusted). This way, by the time the buds have dried and cured enough to test and crown a winning female, her seeds are ready to be popped and the next step can take place.
Since this pollination is strictly for my own purposes of working to the next step, the 100-300 seeds I'll get per branch will be plenty. Were I to be trying to produce enough as a for-sale drop, it would be very limited. The rest of the seeds from the loser female plants will either be banked for future use (assuming they had some other good quality), or just trashed. I'm trying to use organization/scheduling to cut out a few unnecessary cycles in more time intensive line work.