Higher Power Genetics

[treefarmercharlie]

Question - Do you think it makes much of a difference if a home grower takes yours(or other breeders) seeds and grows them in the different medium than the breeder did?

I’ve been reading some thought in this on Reddit, lately, and I’m not so sure I buy the idea that seeds grown in the same style the mother was used to makes any difference other than the differences you typically see between different growing methods. IMO, if there was a noticeable difference, that would mean that the plant is evolving to its environment in a single generation, and that seems pretty unlikely to me. Totally just my opinion, though, and I’m definitely no expert on how plants evolve.

 

[DET—PDX]

I’ve been reading some thought in this on Reddit, lately, and I’m not so sure I buy the idea that seeds grown in the same style the mother was used to makes any difference other than the differences you typically see between different growing methods. IMO, if there was a noticeable difference, that would mean that the plant is evolving to its environment in a single generation, and that seems pretty unlikely to me. Totally just my opinion, though, and I’m definitely no expert on how plants evolve.

A research level question! What effect does media have on the final product? Science probably doesn’t have data to support an answer because money don’t go to plants. Plants are also some of the most difficult and time consuming research subjects. I will google for it, but let me share some problems I see.

1) Air, Water, Nutrients, Light
In order to really compare this, you’d have to grow in the exact same environmental conditions. Humdity, temp, water temp, pH, media pH, Nutrient Levels, Light Intensity and maybe more.
2) Media is manufactured. Rockwool cubes can differ from the next, one scoop of soil from the other, etc. The same coco brick even. You get the idea.
3) Clones can mutate. Tissue culture would be best to compare unless the plant is being cloned from seed for the first time. Even then TC is better.

My experience
I have grown with clones true outdoor, outdoor in a metal shed, indoor organic soil water only, indoor coco and indoor rockwool.

Major hydro vs soil difference:
Hydro plants tend to finish a bit faster, ~5-7 days
Hydro plants give you more control
Hydro plants fade faster and earlier, meaning more faded/dark final product. September/October cold in Michigan did not provide a radical fade like my 68F day/60F night temperatures in the flower room. Even the shed grown in the same conditions with an HPS lamp only faded about half as well as indoor, maybe less. This could be due to perfect nitrogen levels, faster wet/dry cycling, but I’m not sure.

Indoor organic soil plants finished well but most clones faded a bit less than expected. I did not have cookies cuts back then but was growing Topanga Canyon x purple punch, several chocolate diesel crosses, gg4xKatsuBubba, and a few more that should fade more.

I felt that controlled hydro plants turned out denser and higher yielding than soil plants. Potency seemed higher. I’ll do an organic soil pot in place of a coco next round, same room set up same clone, just to see.
So Where does soil win? TERPENES! Soil plants I have noticed have a slight edge on taste and aroma! With that said, for hydro fulvic/humic/amino acids and/or kelp will keep your shit fire.

I would like to hear others experiences in their opinions on the differences in media. I’d like to hear a researcher’s opinion over my own, but we’ll probs have to wait for that.

 

[TerpyTyrone]

A research level question! What effect does media have on the final product? Science probably doesn’t have data to support an answer because money don’t go to plants. Plants are also some of the most difficult and time consuming research subjects. I will google for it, but let me share some problems I see.

1) Air, Water, Nutrients, Light
In order to really compare this, you’d have to grow in the exact same environmental conditions. Humdity, temp, water temp, pH, media pH, Nutrient Levels, Light Intensity and maybe more.
2) Media is manufactured. Rockwool cubes can differ from the next, one scoop of soil from the other, etc. The same coco brick even. You get the idea.
3) Clones can mutate. Tissue culture would be best to compare unless the plant is being cloned from seed for the first time. Even then TC is better.

My experience
I have grown with clones true outdoor, outdoor in a metal shed, indoor organic soil water only, indoor coco and indoor rockwool.

Major hydro vs soil difference:
Hydro plants tend to finish a bit faster, ~5-7 days
Hydro plants give you more control
Hydro plants fade faster and earlier, meaning more faded/dark final product. September/October cold in Michigan did not provide a radical fade like my 68F day/60F night temperatures in the flower room. Even the shed grown in the same conditions with an HPS lamp only faded about half as well as indoor, maybe less. This could be due to perfect nitrogen levels, faster wet/dry cycling, but I’m not sure.

Indoor organic soil plants finished well but most clones faded a bit less than expected. I did not have cookies cuts back then but was growing Topanga Canyon x purple punch, several chocolate diesel crosses, gg4xKatsuBubba, and a few more that should fade more.

I felt that controlled hydro plants turned out denser and higher yielding than soil plants. Potency seemed higher. I’ll do an organic soil pot in place of a coco next round, same room set up same clone, just to see.
So Where does soil win? TERPENES! Soil plants I have noticed have a slight edge on taste and aroma! With that said, for hydro fulvic/humic/amino acids and/or kelp will keep your shit fire.

I would like to hear others experiences in their opinions on the differences in media. I’d like to hear a researcher’s opinion over my own, but we’ll probs have to wait for that.

@Lanestrainley has some input on how to train your plants for the largest, best possible product

 

[Zaphod420]

Thank you very much for all those great info nuggets D, especially the parts about your exp in hydro!
Can I ask your opinion on the following nute recipe for dwc on whether or not you feel it checks all the boxes to keep it fire or if you would add something.

3 parts Jacks 321, 2 parts Jacks cal mag, 1 part Epsom, whole shot glass of Liquid Clean Kelp, small dash of Mr Fulvic & another small dash of AG Fungicide. PPM ends up in the 800-900 range 6.0 PH.

Cheers, Z.

 

[DET—PDX]

Thank you very much for all those great info nuggets D, especially the parts about your exp in hydro!
Can I ask your opinion on the following nute recipe for dwc on whether or not you feel it checks all the boxes to keep it fire or if you would add something.

3 parts Jacks 321, 2 parts Jacks cal mag, 1 part Epsom, whole shot glass of Liquid Clean Kelp, small dash of Mr Fulvic & another small dash of AG Fungicide. PPM ends up in the 800-900 range 6.0 PH.

Cheers, Z.

I would have to check out all the diff nutrients and add it up. DWC I don’t have much experience on pH and ppm’ s, but I like my coco and rockwool 5.6-5.8. pH tends to raise itself over time.

Next little bit I’d like to add is that the breeding plan changed. I am going to select King’s Juice#4, Apples & Bananas, SJ 5.19 and Forbidden Fruit, 30 plants each. These will create the S2’s and F2’s, and their back crosses, in addition to some new F1’s and S1’s. I decided 12 plants each isn’t enough to select from, and I’m tempted to just pick one cross and grow 100 of those. I personally really like F1’s but the genetic variance is their only downfall, and it’s Not right to sell F1’s in my opinion. It’s not right to sell F2’s that we’re selected from only 10 plants either.

 

[DET—PDX]

Yeah I’m seriously considering hunting down the SJ5.19 cross really well since I didn’t clone it, like 120 plants. Unfortunately I only have the space to do one cross at a time with a huge pheno hunt. But it’s gonna be worth it. I want a good sample size. I’ll also have pounds of some wild stuff lol
Upon smoking the mothers today for the first time, Apples and bananas and SJ 5.19 are both really special and probably the best I’ve smoked in a minute. In terms of yield I give the edge to 5.19 and their terps are tied. Both are gassy, with 5.19 having a little more funk under it. Apples and bananas is very gassy and it’s smoke is sweet yet tangy. SJ is sweet but earthy and rich in taste. Both are prime mothers that deserve a proper pheno hunt in their children, so I guess I’ll have to decide which to heavily search first.

 

[Zaphod420]

Oi D... When I think of having to manage the plant counts people like you and H do I want to pee my pants and curl up in the fettle position.
I just got 2 of your Kings Juice X Rainbow Belts & 2 GMO X Funeral cake wet and am really hoping I get a female of both to show up.
HAPPY NEW BEANS Man!

 

[Bustenbeans]

I'm excited to get these new crosses up and rocken.all beans got soked in solo cups and everything had tail's in 36 hours.

 

[DET—PDX]

Oi D... When I think of having to manage the plant counts people like you and H do I want to pee my pants and curl up in the fettle position.
I just got 2 of your Kings Juice X Rainbow Belts & 2 GMO X Funeral cake wet and am really hoping I get a female of both to show up.
HAPPY NEW BEANS Man!
View attachment 104291

You have 60% chance of at least one being female and a 30% chance of both being female with 2 lol. Truth is you’ll get some great stuff out of any Kings Juice or GMO cross. All males were from fabulous stock as well. Makes it easier to breed when greenhouse and Archive do their jobs so well. The genetic stability of king’s juice from seed was so incredible I ended up keeping the shortest out of 40 that produced a week 6-8 fade, which was almost all of them. This one had The fattest and widest buds and was the densest nodes of any plant, so king’s juice #4 is the winner (of course it was 4 out Of 40). If I’m being honest rainbow belts 2.0 from archive was a bit disappointing in terms of terps, really every female leaned Dosidos in its attributes, which is surprising given rainbow belts 2.0 is the result of skittlezxDosi, a back cross to skittlez, And then an F2 result of the Bx children. Turned out to be more of a Dosi back cross. I guess I can’t complain, it’s shocking how spoiled I’ve gotten now that Archive’s original Dosi terps smell almost bland to me.

 

[DET—PDX]

I'm excited to get these new crosses up and rocken.all beans got soked in solo cups and everything had tail's in 36 hours.View attachment 104361

Thats what I like to hear! There will be some fire in there.

 

[DET—PDX]

This is actually picked from 20 exotic seeds. Rainbow Chip x Sherb. Sweet with a fish-like funk. Throwing her Funeral Cake kids in for F2’s next round if not now. Funeral Cake’s StrawNana Sherb terps should play well, as well as perfume/gas from ice cream cake. Lots of fire in that cross right there.

 

[H.A.F.]

I’ve been reading some thought in this on Reddit, lately, and I’m not so sure I buy the idea that seeds grown in the same style the mother was used to makes any difference other than the differences you typically see between different growing methods. IMO, if there was a noticeable difference, that would mean that the plant is evolving to its environment in a single generation, and that seems pretty unlikely to me. Totally just my opinion, though, and I’m definitely no expert on how plants evolve.

Complete bro-science but I think it's a thing. But I only think it matters at certain points. When they first start putting out leaves and start their initial growth, and shortly after flip. Doing the organic thing with no nutes I have had 'hiccups' at both those points with seeds I know were produced hydroponically. Plants are smart, and I think have to learn a new way to feed that it is not used to and those two points are when the learning curve starts.

I think that the opposite could be true, with seeds produced organically then grown with chellated nutes. That nute-burn or 'deficiency' you start correcting for might just be one of those hiccups.

 

[DET—PDX]

Complete bro-science but I think it's a thing. But I only think it matters at certain points. When they first start putting out leaves and start their initial growth, and shortly after flip. Doing the organic thing with no nutes I have had 'hiccups' at both those points with seeds I know were produced hydroponically. Plants are smart, and I think have to learn a new way to feed that it is not used to and those two points are when the learning curve starts.

I think that the opposite could be true, with seeds produced organically then grown with chellated nutes. That nute-burn or 'deficiency' you start correcting for might just be one of those hiccups.

100% possible to damage plants with salts, but Dr. Justice reports finding plants aren’t smart enough to recognize NPK synthetic vs natural. Plants only use the inorganic (ionic) form of of elements. If you grow organic, you need bacteria to create these cations/anions (excluding fulvic acid and some other small exceptions).

I’m also not 100% sure about the soil and terpene link. Dr . justice also reported finding blue light enhanced terpene production while infrared/UV enhanced THC.

 

[J.James]

Do you sell clones @DET—PDX

 

[DET—PDX]

So here’s something fun! We are experimenting with Rosin dilutions in methanol vs 80% methanol. We will see what is the right strength for maximum recovery in the HPLC.

Here’s a look at the ’98 Bubba Kush Rosin batter I made.


I cannot legally share our method details but would be glad to discuss High Pressure Liquid Chromatography with anyone interested.

 

[DET—PDX]

Do you sell clones @DET—PDX

These babies I promised Dillon at Perfect Harvest I wouldn’t give out. Also kind of scared Berner is gonna hunt me down with his cookies squad just for having them lol. I will send you my F2 and Bx crosses that I involve the mothers in. I can pm you with more details.

 

[NoWaistedSpace]

A research level question! What effect does media have on the final product? Science probably doesn’t have data to support an answer because money don’t go to plants. Plants are also some of the most difficult and time consuming research subjects. I will google for it, but let me share some problems I see.

1) Air, Water, Nutrients, Light
In order to really compare this, you’d have to grow in the exact same environmental conditions. Humdity, temp, water temp, pH, media pH, Nutrient Levels, Light Intensity and maybe more.
2) Media is manufactured. Rockwool cubes can differ from the next, one scoop of soil from the other, etc. The same coco brick even. You get the idea.
3) Clones can mutate. Tissue culture would be best to compare unless the plant is being cloned from seed for the first time. Even then TC is better.

My experience
I have grown with clones true outdoor, outdoor in a metal shed, indoor organic soil water only, indoor coco and indoor rockwool.

Major hydro vs soil difference:
Hydro plants tend to finish a bit faster, ~5-7 days
Hydro plants give you more control
Hydro plants fade faster and earlier, meaning more faded/dark final product. September/October cold in Michigan did not provide a radical fade like my 68F day/60F night temperatures in the flower room. Even the shed grown in the same conditions with an HPS lamp only faded about half as well as indoor, maybe less. This could be due to perfect nitrogen levels, faster wet/dry cycling, but I’m not sure.

Indoor organic soil plants finished well but most clones faded a bit less than expected. I did not have cookies cuts back then but was growing Topanga Canyon x purple punch, several chocolate diesel crosses, gg4xKatsuBubba, and a few more that should fade more.

I felt that controlled hydro plants turned out denser and higher yielding than soil plants. Potency seemed higher. I’ll do an organic soil pot in place of a coco next round, same room set up same clone, just to see.
So Where does soil win? TERPENES! Soil plants I have noticed have a slight edge on taste and aroma! With that said, for hydro fulvic/humic/amino acids and/or kelp will keep your shit fire.

I would like to hear others experiences in their opinions on the differences in media. I’d like to hear a researcher’s opinion over my own, but we’ll probs have to wait for that.

One thing to me, light spectrum is gonna have a drastic influence on plants structure and terp development which might look like "evolution".

 

[J.James]

These babies I promised Dillon at Perfect Harvest I wouldn’t give out. Also kind of scared Berner is gonna hunt me down with his cookies squad just for having them lol. I will send you my F2 and Bx crosses that I involve the mothers in. I can pm you with more details.

Was more interested in that Skunk x NL5 male you have. I have been looking for a male to add some bulk to a few of my crosses. How has he performed so far and does he lean Skunk or NL5?

 

[DET—PDX]

Do you sell clones @DET—PDX

Skunk x NL#5 were huge, tall plants with dense buds / pollen sacs. They primarily leaned NL#5, none of them were short. They all had long sativa ‘finger leaves’ and smelled of haze/pine/lemon.
I did not clone the male but I have His pollen in my freezer. I’ve also got many of His seeds from allowing Him to cross with his fellow chosen female. They were both fantastic plants.

Here’s the female:

This is mom half way done

 

[m4s73r]

I posed this over on Heisens thread but christmas happened lol. So let me ask you as well.

I have always been curious if you have ever noticed a large shift in plant structure/stretch with your testers from one growing style/light source to the next? And as a breeder have you considered growing different styles/lights/room conditions to fine tune cultivars? Do you pick traits from some plants under HPS vs LED? Or even LED spectrum?
I've wondered if its better to follow the breeders growing style for their seeds. And should that be something that is made clear to a customer? Kinda like "For best results matching breeder, flower under DE HPS at 83°F 55% RH in a 1gallon Coco DTW system.

Indoor organic soil plants finished well but most clones faded a bit less than expected. I did not have cookies cuts back then but was growing Topanga Canyon x purple punch, several chocolate diesel crosses, gg4xKatsuBubba, and a few more that should fade more.

As a living soil bed grower, Some cultivars never seance. I had a gg4 x gsc that was green all the way up to chop. I even let one go 80 days and had 20% amber and still green.

I felt that controlled hydro plants turned out denser and higher yielding than soil plants. Potency seemed higher. I’ll do an organic soil pot in place of a coco next round, same room set up same clone, just to see.
So Where does soil win? TERPENES! Soil plants I have noticed have a slight edge on taste and aroma! With that said, for hydro fulvic/humic/amino acids and/or kelp will keep your shit fire.

I would like to hear others experiences in their opinions on the differences in media. I’d like to hear a researcher’s opinion over my own, but we’ll probs have to wait for that.

When I went from doing hempys to organic soil I did notice a change in terpenes from one to the other. We were actually quite surprised on our C99 cut. I had been growing that for about 2 years when we put it in soil. Did take about a week longer to finish but the flavor was more pronounced.

Here is the other side of soil to consider. Age. I mono-cropped 8 of that Gorilla Cookies in both of my beds. One was fresh mixed soil, the other was 6 year old soil. Same time frame, same watering, however I let the hugel bed go pretty much untrained. Top it a couple of times and made some bushes. The older soil they were just trellised.
Interestingly the plants in the old soil finished about a week a head of the new soil. We also kept going back to the jar with the old soil vs new soil. It just smelled better.